Interview with Gian de la Rama: Innovantage Podcast
By Asha Gutierrez
Techshake Radio: December 1, 2016
Innovantage is a B2B cloud solutions company that specializes in building product ecosystems with their own brand of innovation and creativity.
Gian de la Rama, the Co-founder and CEO, walks us through the different startups he put up before establishing Innovantage. This includes the many victories and challenges he had to go through along the way, culminating in a difficult decision that threatened to end his company.
This was an inspirational talk that could help startups encountering roadblocks of their own. He ends it by emphasizing the importance of resilience for startup founders.
Learn more about Innovantage by visiting their website at www.ivantageapps.com
Paolo: Okay, so we are joined by Gian de la Rama, co-founder of Innovantage. Thank you for joining us. Let us talk about the name of Innovantage first. I’m guessing it’s Innovation Advantage, is that correct?
Gian: Yes, it’s Innovation Advantage. We were thinking of a name that we could shorten from two words given that this might be too long. Especially when we usually speak about our company. In our case, it is IV. Yes, we started out as Innovation Advantage. It started as I-advantage, then it became Innovation Advantage. There are a lot more but they began with these two words then ended up as Innovantage. We just cut it in half and it sounded good.
Paolo: IV is the one that you stick inside right?
Gian: (laughter) Yeah, it might be the one that you stick. It does.
Gian: But we once believed that Innovation is probably the only true competitive advantage that we can have. Especially now when things are being seen as a commodity. I can do it in less than a minute if you want or I can hire an outsource via a platform made by a couple of Engineers to build something. It is development work, hardware, and infastructure to getting commoditized ready. Everyone has it so now it is just what you can do with it. That is why Innovation should be present, so that even though everyone has it, one can still be creative. Right? If you know how to innovate then you are always one step ahead.
Paolo: Exactly. So, let’s go back a bit, how did you start, even before you started Innovantage? Was it something that you really planned on doing since the very start?
Gian: Well, not at all actually… Although even in college, in highschool actually, I was already reading through magazine articles about Google at that time (It was 1998) and then I was also reading through articles about (you take it for granted now) wifi. I was in college back then. It was like that before, it was amazing to get your internet while lying down. I mean they take that now for granted. A decade and a half years ago, that was like magic. I always loved technology ever since. When I graduated from college I actually started teaching in Ateneo for a summer and then I did some consulting work for building small websites for clients. I went through the normal route and I got work in several corporations. At the back of my mind, I am always thinking, I need to build my own company. I get bored a lot and I always want to do something. When I cannot outlive my ideas, I get depressed. That’s why I really wanted to do something about this. To fast forward, in the year 2008, I was able to get together with a couple of friends and we started our own consulting group in IT matters for clients. If I remember correctly, the name of that group was Vantage Point.
Gian: Yes, Vantage Point.
Paolo: Vantage, as well.
Gian: Yes. (laughter) the Vantage was already there. However, that didn’t fly, that group. However, some of the members in this group eventually became microfounders in another start-up. It was called E1-Vision. We were doing this at a time, with data networking and voice hardware. It was basically about distributing hardware technology compnonents. Then we got into software and all of that. From there, I still had this inkling that I wanted to build software rather than hardware and so at that point, I was more focused on that. I knew I loved technology but my passion within technology is really about building software. I left that company and started another one. At this point, I did it on my own, and called it One View.
Paolo: You have a thing for Vs.
Gian: Yes, I think so.
Paolo: Vantage, View, Innovantage!
Gian: Yes! I think I really do! (laughter)
Paolo: Yes, it seems.
Gian: Yes, basically, it was this software, it is a small software company . It wasn’t that big but we were probably about 6 people at its height. We were doing software support, IT support, and building software. This was already in the year 2010 and 2011. That was when I started attending the start of weekend, the first one. That was my first true introduction into the community. There was no community back then but you’ll be surprised at the moment you went in that first start-up weekend. More than a hundred people! It was a very vibrant group of individuals and there were a lot of ideas being discussed. There were a lot of different people with different backgrounds. So yeah, I joined start-up weekend and I met a couple of guys for the next 3 days. We fleshed out on an idea and it was called ‘kwago’, because it was an online learning platform. ‘Kwago’ because like Harry Potter, and all of that…
Paolo: Wait, what does ‘kwago’ mean? Owl, right?
Gian: Yeah! So, we were actually really passionate about it. We were very passionate about discussing. The fifty-four hours that we were together just discussing. We were really at it. Going through it. I remember even pulling out a whiteboard marker and scribbling in the whiteboard. Surprisingly, and we were all surprised, we actually became one of the winners! There in start-up weekend. That’s when we got to meet the guys, then we eventually became kickstart ventures. From there, we were still with One View. I continued with One View fast forward to 2013. That’s when I met my co-founder Aldrich. We met on the year 2012 and on 2013 we decided to take the challenge of owning our own company. Then I had my own company. We were on the verge of closing a new contract with a large multinational at that time. We closed it but we didn’t have enough software developers. I spoke with him (Aldrich) and I said, “You are doing your own software team so can you can just build this software for us? I’ll pay you and so on and so forth.”
Gian: At one point, we became their largest customer. (laughter) So things just clicked. “Can we just do a company together, rather than having two entities?” We just merged as one and that became Innovantage. That was July 20, 2013 and I guessed the rest is history.
Paolo: For the sake of listeners now, can you talk about, very briefly, about what Innovantage does?
Gian: Yeah. Our vision is to help companies get rid of paper. It’s a very simple vision but it’s very complicated to implement.
Paolo: It’s very well-ingrained. Especially in big companies…
Gian: Yeah. Paper has been there for millenia. Right? So, right now, in this day and age, paper is important but not as much important as per companies. I mean, if you really want to move fast, you need to get rid of paper. You have to get rid of it and go digital. You have to be automated. This is a new process. The company, revolves around that vision that we’ve built. We actually started as a pure software development company. We also had digital marketing like design. I think we were moderately successful until we realized that we need to focus on serving a bigger market for a more sustainable business. So we focused on products and ‘Kojito’ was our first foray or product to develop.
Paolo: Why was that something that you guys considered? Creating products instead of looking for a bigger client base or getting larger clients?
Gian: Well, it started because of a client. I guess that’s the thing. They were asking us to do something to automate their processes precisely and I think we gave them a quota and they found it too high. In retrospect, we actually should have demanded the pay because I knew they could but they found it too high. They wanted a sizeable discount and all I though of at that moment was how this can be a win-win situation. So, I told them, “Okay, we will give you this discount. It was a pretty steep discount but—this big but here allows us to own the intellectual property that the we will build. We will build it together and your specs, obviously, your specs will be your specs. Allow us to keep the intellectual property of the core product, develop it and release it as a product so that other companies, and yes, maybe including our competitors can use.” Yeah, they allowed us and that became Kojito. Essentially and we noticed that several other companies wanted the same thing. They wanted to automate their processes getting out of paper. So, we asked for their paper forms using Kojito. We modeled them, those forms into creating electronic forms, online forms. Then we got a drawing of their process, a flow chart, and we built a facility within Kojito so that we can make a flowchart that will automate from there. Yeah! Then one thing led to another, after one client, several other clients. And then that’s when we said, “Okay, let’s focus on products.” So what happened was, on the 2015 January, we span-off another company. The customs software development worked. The digital marketing and the social marketing also both worked and spun-off a new company. It is called DAIS205, 205 because our office address is unit 205. Now, there are two companies, Innovantage and DAIS205. One of our co-founders actually, the wife of Aldrich, runs DAIS205. They do the social media design and customs software development work and we have Innovantage as product development. Then, 2015, we essentially kept that vision, to help companies reduce their dependency on paper. It wasn’t as successful initially but eventually, we got the product working and all. So, Kojito brought forth SEANOP, which is a personal bills management platform which saves on paper because—it is not well known to the users of SEANOP, but the SEANOP back in can actually connect to the systems of utilities. That way, they can send the bill directly to the app. You don’t need to print an actual bill anymore. You can generate the bill, save this app, and the app tracks it as it accepts payments. The app can serve as a vehicle between the utility and the customer and so on and so forth. The third product came in which is Nudge an off-shoot of Kojito. Our same customers wanted easier ways to interact with our system.. [ ] That’s what we did. We actually started building Nudge around July of this year.
Paolo: So it is still pretty new.
Gian: Yeah, we released it as Alpha. Probably around late August. It is now on Beta. It should be out of Beta at the end of the month.
Paolo: Wow! Congratulations!
Gian: We already have like one or two customers lined up already to buy Nudge. The moment it’s out of Beta.
Paolo: How do you guys strike the balance between service and creating your products? Because I recall correctly, you only have how many people in your company?
Gian: We have 9 and 4 are developers.
Paolo: Just 4 developers.
Paolo: So how do you manage your time?
Gian: (laughter) Not very well actually. I mean personally but because there is just so much stuff to do. But I guess it is all about—the thing about working with large corporations is that they don’t move as fast as start-ups or smaller companies and we use that to our advantage. Because it also means that project kick-offs do not happen immediately. From the time that they say yes and sign a contract. In those delays, it’s just a matter of… okay, so in between…
Paolo: Let’s get some more work
Gian: Yes, when we work, when they kick-off, that’s where we focus. Then even within a project, it’s not one continuous stream of work. We follow the agile methodology and so whenever we do a sprint and we present essentially an increment, that takes some time for our clients to get back to us. Then again, they’re lull is our advantage as we get more work done. My developers and all of us in particular in the company have work—work more than one thing at a time. Like doing Nudge/doing client work. Doing Kojito/doing client work. We just try to make things work as much as we can. This also means removing as much causes of delay, so we have an office but traffic became so much of a problem that we decided to not go to the office.
Gian: It’s work from home. Anywhere. We’ve been working in chat ever since we started. Again, another inspiration for Nudge. We always have our stand-up meetings in chat. In fact, we built Nudge so that we track our messages with one another. If you look at a slack account or slack feeds right now, we have so many Nudges whenever we do project updates because we have a Nudge for project updates. So instead of typing what you did for today, or etcetera, they just type Nudge/project and then they give the update as normal. It’s all tracked. At the end of the day, I just type view and then list Nudge update. There! I see all of our project updates for today as a report I don’t need to scroll through slacks. We try to remove as much barriers as we could to productivity. That’s essentially how we do it. And we have a pretty spectacular project manager as our COO, Joyce. She essentially keeps everybody in line while I focus on sales and other stuff.
Paolo: So, you guys be much work from home almost exclusively during the whole week?
Gian: Three days a week. Three and maybe four at times.
Paolo: I can imagine that’s some sort of nightmare for your project manager. How do you guys make it work?
Gian: Well, not too total horn by horn but we use Nudge. That’s a big tool for us to use and it helps us. It gives us all the updates, they are all in one place. I can then scroll through those updates on a report at the end of the day because I cannot attend all of their stand-up meetings. And then everything is organized as much as possible. There’s also this trust that we have. You know working for a large corporation, working for multinationals, working for local companies basically we are all trained to the get go of physical offices. The specific time. In a call center, you usually time in and then time out everytime you go on a break. So we’ve been throug that. Within the physical office this is what becomes. But in this office what I’ve found out is the reason why managers want to keep people in the office onset is they want to make sure that they work. Right? And it also means that they don’t trust them enoughtime in and then time out everytime you go on a break. So we’ve been throug that. Within the physical office this is what becomes. But in this office what I’ve found out is the reason why managers want to keep people in the office onset is they want to make sure that they work. Right? And it also means that they don’t trust them enoughtime in and then time out everytime you go on a break. So we’ve been throug that. Within the physical office this is what becomes. But in this office what I’ve found out is the reason why managers want to keep people in the office onset is they want to make sure that they work. Right? And it also means that they don’t trust them enough—I guess, to do things on their own. Maybe yes or maybe not. I don’t know. On my case, I choose my people carefully enough when I hire them because I won’t hire people that I won’t trust. So, we hire them and we know that they can be trusted. In fact, we are the ones who trust them first on the get go. If you’re hired, you probably would have to stay in a month at the office but apart from that there will be three days working right after. Then we have to trust that they do it. There’s constant updating. Again, by Nudge but eventually, that trust with our guys are rewarded in terms of consistent outputs from them. Obviously, it is not always perfect, there are bad apples every now and then, there are times in which we need to work in an office. That’s why our office is still there. But for the most part we have been working from home. That’s it. We trust in reporting. That’s how we do it.
Paolo: I think that trust is something very diffucult to actually wield especially when you’re hiring many people. It’s easy to actually do it with friends. People that you already know. So, how do you actually build that type of culture, within your company so that you can actually establish your sense of trust?
Gian: Well, the single most important thing that we do, that I do is hiring. So, you have to hire individuals that you know from the get go. We’re not talking about over time. From the get go, from the moment they leave the interview room, you have to be able to trust that person. If you don’t, then, no matter how good that person is, then they are not going to be a good fit.
Paolo: What type of characteristics that you look for. Like it’s hard to say that it’s easy to trust the person, is there a certain personality type that you look for or is there something in your resume that you look for. Okay this screams that, “Okay, I can trust this person.” How do you draw that our from an initial interview?
Gian: I don’t get that from the resume. It doesn’t tell me anything. Resumes for me, don’t tell me as much as I want. It’s really in the interviews that I get that out. Primarily, eye-contact. You know if while they’re answering they’re not looking then I get fidgety already. At the same time, we do a lot of exams I guess. When I say exams, these means, scenarios that they need to answer especially in the technical interviews. They get pretty difficult, and if these don’t match with what they say or what they do during the interview then that’s already a breach of trust. I also look for individuals that can demonstrate and describe in detail diligence. How, or what was the hardest thing that you’ve ever encountered in their previous company. They should describe to me in detail, not in high level, “What did you do?” Did you go home early or late? Did you work the X number of hours? I think I did ask in an interview once, “Did you cry?” Not that I wanted him to cry but were they able to solve the problem, and if they did that’s already there. Diligence, eye-contact, and the funny thing is I look for people who only need to say what they need to say not those who says a lot more after. Because I am in sales, I know the difference of salemanship and insincere self-advertisment. I also choose those who answers right on my questions. I look at that and then one last thing is I listen to my gut. All of the guys that I have hired are not 100% fool proof but for the majority, if I felt good about them the first time that I met them, then I will probably hire them. That is, if they met the techinical requirements or whatever.
Paolo: That’s true actually. A lot also plays with the gut feeling. I mean as start-up recruiters, we also build companies from our gut feeling. When hiring, intuition is such an important part. In Innovantage, what’s your greatest take away from actually building or some of them didn’t work as well… What did you learn from all of them?
Gian: Probably there are three take aways. Number 1 is never get too excited whenever you close a client. That is a big thing for me. You tend to miss the small things and you tend to overproject stuff and you start acting as if you’ve won everything. I’ve gone through that. That’s the first things never go as planned. That’s the second take away, no matter how good the plans are, they will never go as planned. So you better be sure that you have contingencies. At the same time, as a founder, you need to be prepared emotionally and psychologically to bear the brunt of the impact of the failure. There will never be like a true success. That’s success comes after several instances of hardship. It doesn’t happen right away in a blink of an eye for example. The third thing is, always learn to stand up after a failure. Yeah, I’ve been through several companies, not all of them are successes. Right? The most successful of them is not that successful compared to what we’re seeing right now but you have to move forward, you have to be resilient you know. I am not saying that you have to fail all the time but treat failure as a learning opportunity. Probably if you are in the middle of failing, you’ll probably not think of learning. But after, once the dust settles, just think and explore. If there’s one thing that you could have done differently, what would it be? And so, do it again! Except for that part, obviously!
Paolo: Learn from it.
Gian: Yeah. Learn from it! I just keep on doing it. Never give up on what you’re doing except when it starts affecting the people around you negatively. I mean, as founders, we can get a little bit blinded especially when we see the goal, even when we are already being affected negatively. Even families being affected. You know, there are things that are more important than your company. You have family. If you don’t have that support later and your company fails, you can’t do anything again because you’ll be too affected!
Paolo: So, have you encountered any hardships?
Gian: Yes, everyday. (laughter)
Paolo: (laughter) I am sure! As a founder, you will always encounter hardships while—like you said, you can’t go through any hardships without hardwork and difficulty. For the case of Innovantage, have you ever ran into harships or some big bumps on the road?
Gian: Yeah, I remember that. I think that was during the late 2015. I think that there was time, in which on my end, I overprojected a revenue. Clients that I thought would close did not close. Collections that I thought would be collected on time did not become collected on time. We were building our employee base at that time. Our costs were actually going higher and we’ve seen that a revenue was not going to sustain our employee growth! That was very hard! Because we had to decide at that point and one of the things that we have decided to do was to reduce our head count. That was the first time, I think that was around October last year, wherein I had to let people go. To explain to them, to tell them the situation and tell them that their last day would be two weeks from now. That was very hard because I couldn’t tell them that I didn’t have the choice. That was my choice and I had to live up to that choice. That they would get mad at me, that there would be some unstable emotions at that time, or if it was a right decision to begin with. Because at the back of my mind, if I let that person go, would it be possible that next week his client would close in sales for example? I am letting go of that opportunity. Yet, I had to make a decision, at the end of the day, if you need your company to move forward, these are steps that you have to take. So we entered a state but we have a lot of support as well. Our investors were a great support. Our friends were great support. The guys themselves, the team of Innovantage, supported one another. That was a low point. A second low point was this year! Wherein we had to again—we were in a better position than our low point last year. One of the things that I learned from that was I had to project or anticipate potential catastrophic failures. Right?
Paolo: Which is very hard to actually do though…
Gian: And I was able to, I knew what to do.. I knew at one point, if I don’t get our act together, we would basically just die as a company. So, again, what did we do? Could we change our mix of sevices, meaning can we get more services right now? Can we focus on services sales to existing clients than focusing on products. Again, we focus on sales team, to do as many as they can at one point. I think I decided then to just focus on our existing clients, maybe they have stuff that they wanted us to do. Not necessarily part of the Nudge or SEANOP. So, that’s one way that will show up a revenue. Second is, how can we save on cost? That was the time when we decided to get rid of our physical offices since we were working from home anyway. We were fortunate enough that our investor KickStart had their own co-working space that was actually free office and internet. We made the most out of that, 2 days when we were meeting there. Right now, we are only maintaining an office just for an address. It does save a lot of money. Then again, maybe we needed to rationalize our head count but it was a bit different this time around. My co-founder and I, along with the management guys have already decided that we do need to start reducing head count, firing people again. The night before I was suppose to do that, I didn’t want them to—one of the things, as a CEO, is taking responsibility for these types of decisions. So, I told the management team at that time, which is my co-founder and our COO, “I’ll talk to the guys, let me handle all of the awkward conversations. Let me fire them.”
Paolo: That’s very good.
Gian: Yeah. Because I did that already. I mean, once. I know that it was going to be difficult but I know that I can handle it. I didn’t want them to become too much affected as well. I became the shield. But the night before I did that, I thought of a Hail Mary solution which was giving them a choice. It was weird because you know at this point, the choice was made, but maybe, I can give them a choice. I basically told everyone, “This is the situation, we have enough runway now to essentially give you your severance and all of that. You can decide to leave the company immediately without any hard feelings, I will even help place you.” Because I knew that they can get a job outside. They’re very talented individuals. So there. You get a 3,4, or even 5 months worth of pay immediately and then find another career or stick with us, work harder than you’ve ever worked before, and at this vision of ours that has probably only 1% chance to succeeding in the next 6 months. If we don’t do anything by December, let’s close down since we can’t do anything anymore. Less than 1% chance of succeeding and here’s the kicker, remember we’re doing this because we are not getting enough sales and revenue costs but I still had to pay them their salaries. That’s the kicker. “Can you guys get a paycut?” I asked everyone.
Get the paycut but we’ll give it back eventually once everything has recovered. For now, make a paycut. Yes choose number 2. That was number 2, work harder at something that may not succeed at all and get less money in the process. Those were the terms, so I tried to make it as bleak for them since I want them to leave and to get their money while they could and start their career. With the exception of one person, everyone decided to stay. That was like for me, personally, that was the best and worst day as a founder. Because I gave my guys a choice to go to a better career or life at that point or stick with us through thick and thin at a very low odds at success. The majority of them choose to stay and that really invigorated me as a founder. This is a do or die situation for all of us. They stuck with me, my co-founder, and everybody else! I know that—this probably as well is my best decision, the best idea that I did, giving them that choice. If I had not thought of it, Nudge would not be here. We started Nudge on July…
Paolo: Right after…
Gian: Yeah! Right after we had this. Fortunately, we started getting clients.
Paolo: Things started kicking up.
Gian: Yes. Last month alone, I closed a deal in Kojito, which is a branded with Nudge enterprises to 7 countries from clients. That’s like 1 our of 7 projects that we have from other clients. Plus, we are still closing more clients. Yes, the work is there.
Gian: I keep on telling my guys, “Remember I told you, in June to work harder, this is it!” If you think you are working hard already, this is going to be harder than any other thing. They are so okay, they just tell me, “Okay, what do we need to do?” I know that they’ve been working 12-15 hours a day at home and I am proud. Every single day, I see them, I am proud as I have seen the progress that they have made with Nudge. I have the progress that the company has made since I have made that decision. It’s not because of me! It’s actually because of them! I they choose to leave then, this would not have happened. Yeah, that’s one of my lowerst points that actually became a defining moment for Innovantage.
Paolo: That’s awesome! I really like that story because you really get to see the character of the person when they face adversity. And when they actually have to face that point to make that snap decision. Do I keep my people or do I find another way to keep them onboard? For them to come out even more motivated than before. That’s really awesome! And I think it was a combination of the culture that you fostered in your company.
Gian: Yeah. Because we had to trust one another. That, in the end of the day, we all played a part in the company’s future. There is no individual who did the work of everybody… Everybody is important no matter how big or small tasks they did. I may be the CEO but I am pretty sure that I cannot build Nudge the way one of my developers Darwin did. I might be the CEO but I can’t think of a WS architecture the same way as my CTO can do. We all have those things that we do and we all compliment each other for the most part, I’ve been working with them for 3 years. For most of them, we’ve already gone through personal hardships together. You know, there are already 3 kids that have been born from different people in the company for the past 3 years. Yeah, it’s one big family and we would work as hard as we can, as much as we can to protect that family.
Paolo: So you spoke about resilence and that pretty much spoke about and intensifies about what you like about your company in volkswagen detail…
Gian: Yeah!!! (laughter)
Paolo: What do you think will help it chug along in the next upcoming year?
Gian: I think one is finding a lot more people like them. The people that I have right now. I also don’t want to keep this status quo. I want to improve everything as I want my company to grow and succeed. In order for us to do that, we need to get more people to help us. When I say we need more people to help us, it means getting more people than can help our jobs better. I may be the CEO of the company and I do sales but I know that I am not the best salesman. So, I am looking for a person, for example, who can be the head of sales or products! Yes, getting more people there—getting our business model fixed and on top of that, can be scaleable. There will be a lot of back and forth in our founder and investors and everybody. At the same time, you know, making sure that what we’re doing, for Nudge, will spread and be known by much people as we could. Given our budget, our marketing, and our everything. Will it mean getting another investor or getting more money. Maybe? Would it mean another product? My thinking right now is hopefully not in the next 2 years! (laughter) We just want to focus with these first. Yeah, probably what we need to do so that we can not only chug along—but still be a beatle as long as there are rockets strapped on its roof!
Paolo: Okay! (laughter)
Gian: At the end of the day beatles attack. So all you need to do is have some massive rockets! (laughter) That’s it!
Paolo: A beatle can take anything!
Gian: Yeah, so…
Paolo: and they can still survive right?
Paolo: Exactly! So Innovantage is a power rocket beatle.
Gian: Yeah! Yes!
Paolo: So how can people reach out to you, maybe from some social media links that they can go to or some websites? Some of them may actually want to work with Innovantage.
Gian: Yeah! So, our website is www.ivantageapps.com the link to all our product websites are there. We have a blog which is blog.unudge.me.
Gian: Of course in Facebook, you can connect with me, it’s Gian DLR personally. Then our Facebook page which is Ivantageapps as well. From there, you can go to our Kojito cloud link, unudge link, and our SEANOP link. So, they are all there but we do have one blog. I am busy but if there’s a question I’ll answer it. I won’t get back to them immediately but I’ll be happy to help. I am an active member of Starting PH group. As well as the, Start-up PH group so you can contact me there via those groups as well. On Monday and Tuesday, I am always at the KickStart space. If you guys want to drop by, I’ll be there.
Paolo: Alright! That was a really awesome story! I learned a lot personally, and I hope that the listeners also do learn a lot. Any parting words or maybe one piece of advice that start-up founders or entrepreneurs will need in order to be successful. In order to have a good start-up.
Gian: I’ll just have to repeat what I’ve said earlier, be resilient. As a start-up founder, you will be punched in the gut for a lot of time or be kicked in the face sometimes! But… You always have to stand up and take another punch or another kick! You know, stand up, dust it off, move forward. You became a start-up founder because you wanted to be a start-up founder. Right? So, just chug along. It’s not going to be easy, but it’s going to be worth it at the end of the day.
Paolo: Awesome! Thank you so much for this podcast. It was really great having you.
Gian: No problem. Thank you very much as well.